Quick Hit Summary
In this interview, we have the privilege of continuing our discussion with SuppVersity’s Adel Moussa. In Part II of this interview, Adel shares with us his thoughts on periworkout nutrition and supplementation in general. Special attention is given to supplements such as dairy protein, creatine, caffeine, sodium bicarbonate (a.k.a. baking soda… yes, that same stuff that is found in your kitchen!), taurine & BCAA's. In addition, Adel explains why he feels megadoses of fish oil and Vitamin D are way overrated.
Interview With Adel Moussa Series
Adel and I covered a lot of ground in our interview together. Thus, I split it up into three parts. Part I covers his personal backgound and myths associated with kcal needs, the effects of exercise induced hormone fluctuations as well as his thoughts on intermittent fasting. In Part II Adel shares his thoughts on periworkout nutrition and supplementation in general. Special attention is given to supplements such as dairy protein, creatine, caffeine, sodium bicarbonate (a.k.a. baking soda… yes, that same stuff that is found in your kitchen!), and taurine. In addition, Adel explains why he feels megadoses of fish oil and Vitamin D is way overrated. In the 3rd, and final installment of our interview together, Adel Moussa takes a philosophical approach in sharing his thoughts with us regarding the "adrenal fatigue" pandemic as well as his thoughts in regards to the Paleo diet. In addition, I share with you my "Top 5 SuppVersity Article Countdown".
Part II
Figure 1. Auguste Rodin must have had people like Adel Moussa in mind when he sculpted "The Thinker"16
In this installment of Interview with the Expert we have the privilege of continuing our conversation with my friend Adel Moussa of SuppVersity. In Part II of this interview, we shift gears and tackle questions related to proper supplementation & peri-workout nutrition.
Before we get to the interview, I need to address a potential technical issue; Adel has shared with us a bunch of his direct feeds that have been hyperlinked into the interview. If you have Google Chrome as you web browser, you may have trouble accessing them. In that case, I'd recommend going directly to the SuppVersity website and typing the specific supplement, etc, directly into the search box that is found on the upper left hand corner of the website. If you have Internet Explorer or Mozilla Firefox as your web browser, this does not appear to be a problem.
But I realize that you didn't come here to listen to me talk so let's get back to the interview…
And Now Back To Our Interview…
Peri-workout nutrition is a popular topic in the training field. For those resistance training athletes, looking to maximize performance and gain lean mass, what do you feel is the “ultimate” nutrition/supplement protocol?
There are actually three supplements you got to have:
#1. Dairy Based Protein
One is a dairy based protein shake — preferentially one that’s based on a whey concentrate or isolate (pick the isolate if you are prone to milk induced digestive problems). As far as fast digesting, affordable high quality and great tasting proteins are concerned, there is simply no alternative to whey (if you happen to follow the vegan lifestyle, pick up some pea protein). Casein, which is the slow acting complement to whey, does yet have benefit as well. However, in contrast to whey you can fulfill your casein cravings from whole food sources, as well; Cottage cheese or quark (which is my favorite) are good sources for those of you who don’t want to buy yet another tub of protein powder.
The whey is there to make sure you make optimal use of the exercise induced increase in protein synthesis. 20-45 g of whey protein (depending on your overall protein intake and body) right after the workout will do the trick – if you are unsure about the dosing and whether more is / could be better, you may want to read up on “threshold” doses of protein, in this SuppVersity article and on why it may make sense to use a combination of whey and casein proteins, here.
#2. Creatine
The second supplement on the “must have” list is creatine – there is no debating that it’s safe, effective and offers not just ergogenic, but also health benefits. I could probably go on for an hour, but instead, I suggest you just browse the plethora of creatine articles I have posted in the past.
Creatine is supposed to increase your intracellular phosphocreatine stores and bolster your strength and mass gains. Thus, in the end, it does not matter when you take it. I’d suggest you split your 5g per day in two 2.5g servings and take them chronically before and after workouts (on non-workout days before breakfast and dinner).
#3. Caffeine
Add in a little good old caffeine to get you going and the triumvirate of “must have supplements” is complete. It’s your call whether you choose caffeine pills, powder or simply stick to one or two cups of coffee is up to you. The healthiest, albeit not always most convenient way, is certainly freshly brewed coffee. The optimal time to take it depends on when you had your last meal. If you’ve already eaten, take it ~30-40 minutes before the workout; when you train on empty you can even get away with 15 min.
The usefulness of most of the other supplements really depends on your training status, training type and goals and everyone who knows me, will be aware that I hate “one-size fits all” kitchen sink supplementation solutions. And neither are you, Sean, right?
I’m not a huge fan of those approaches either as I feel you should take a targeted approach specific to your needs. The only time I recommend a “kitchen sink supplement solution” is if the individual I’m working with can find a product that contains >50 “synergistically blended” ingredients (including a bare minimum of 5 different types of creatine). In addition, you know the product is truly legit if each ingredient is listed in an undisclosed amount which, if you do the math, can beat AT MOST 1/5 to 1/3 of the proven effective dosage. By taking one of these fine “kitchen sink supplement” approaches, one can ensure that they’re getting all they need and not creating any sort of physiological imbalance by consuming too much of something that was already borderline high in their bodies to start with pre-supplementation. Oh yeah, before I forget, if you're not 100% for sure if a specific "kitchen sink supplement" will work as claimed in the product's promos, be sure to look at the ratings/reviews found on the manufacturer's website and sponsored forums.. Those are great places to find out which ones truly work! (Please note sarcasm!)
Nevertheless, I know my readers and I assume yours will be similar, so in order to make them happy I will still drop a couple of names, here: BCAAs, micellar casein, taurine, sodium bicarbonate, glutamine, arginine keto-glutarate (not for the pump but for ammonia detox), beta alanine, trimethylglycine (aka Betaine), resistant starches, inulin, high GI carbs, glycerol, electrolyte complexes, … and water, but not so much that you wash out the electrolytes! Also, don’t be fooled into thinking that distilled water is better for your health. It’s not – at least if the minerals have not been added back in after the distillation process.1
Most of the supplements you mentioned in your “quick hit list” will be familiar to the faithful readers here at CasePerfomance. However, there are two of them that we haven’t really discussed to any significant degree. Believe it or not Adel, the first one is sodium bicarbonate, aka baking soda. (CasePerfomance readers, I say “believe it or not Adel” with respect to sodium bicarbonate because for anyone who has followed Adel’s writings at SuppVersity will know that this is one of his personal favorites!). The second one is taurine. In your opinion, when, why and how should one incorporate these two particular supplements in their diet to maximize their benefits?
Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) aka baking soda acts as an extracellular buffer, it neutralizes the acid that builds-up in your blood not just during workouts, but also in response to high protein or otherwise acidifying diets. Against that background, you could argue that the immediate performance benefits, which are mostly related to the prevention of fatigue and the formation of lactic acid (not to be confused with lactate which the body can use for energy), are actually less important than the ability of NaHCO3 to gear your body towards and keep it in a more alkaline state. This in turn will help you to ward off the host of negative metabolic side effects you will see even, when your pH is still within the “normal” range (see Figure 2 and/or learn more in previous SuppVersity articles).
Figure 2. Negative side effects of latent acidosis (= serum pH STILL within the upper normal range, from SuppVersity: The Latest on Sodium Bicarbonate. 2012)
As a regular training specific supplement sodium bicarbonate appears to be particular suitable for people who follow a typical body building style high volume training (learn more). A nice side effect: It can enhance the absorption of creatine monohydrate. In fact “buffered” creatines, are nothing but creatine + a pH buffer, with one of the best-known brands using nothing but a miniscule amount of baking soda in their pricey creatine monohydrate + X blend (learn more).
As a training supplement and in order to elicit acute responses, baking soda is usually ingested in 20g+ amounts and with lots of water 60-90min before a workout or competition. However, in view of the fact that this can lead to gastro-intestinal distress, which can be a real bummer during a workout (let alone a meet or race!) it would seem more prudent to spread your NaHCO3 intake evenly across the day. This would also have the advantage of keeping your pH in the optimal range 24/7 instead of having it skyrocket before a workout and drop afterwards. Incidentally, scientists have confirmed only recently, that this form of “serial loading”, where you take 10g of sodium bicarbonate 3x a day works. Without further supplementation on workout days, this protocol yielded about the same performance increase as the acute loading protocol despite the fact that there was no further supplementation before the actual test was conducted (suggested read NaHCO3 serial loading). And while respective studies are still lacking, I personally believe that – in the long run – 5g of baking soda and an already alkalizing diet with lots of green veggies should be enough to do the trick.
Ah, what was the other? Ah, right taurine: Taurine acts as an osmolyte, stabilizer of the cell wall, hepatoprotectant and antioxidant. It is a source for bile acid formation and figures in both glucose and lipid metabolism. It has been shown to ameliorate / prevent insulin resistance, boost testosterone and has some acute performance enhancing benefits. It helps with the painful “back pumps” users of performance enhancing drugs experience and acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain. Effective doses probably start with 3g per/day and can go up to 9g (for the “anti-back-pump effects” more can be necessary). If you take only one serving, take it with a preworkout supplement; Otherwise take it with meals equally spread across the day – watch out for diarrhea and learn more about the details in previous SuppVersity articles on taurine ;-).
Aside from the diarrhea the list of known side effects for taurine is short. In view of its interactions with the GABA receptor (beta alanine does that too, by the way), people who are prone to anxiety or have similar / related issues should keep an eye on whether taurine relieves or increases these problems. This goes specifically for long-term supplementation, where a single rodent study appears to suggest that the initial anxiolytic effects may turn against you after weeks.2 The significance of these results is however questionable, because the scientists injected the taurine directly into the brain (Editor’s note – Ouch! I can see why scientist had trouble finding human willing to volunteer and resorted to animals for this study ;-).
Contrary to supplements like beta alanine, there is no evidence that it would be more cost effective, let alone necessary to cycle taurine. Nevertheless, I would experiment with different (lower) dosages – I mean why take more than what’s necessary? This goes specifically for those of you taking high amounts of taurine to ameliorate the dreaded “back pumps”. Apropos, it may be useful to combine taurine with a potassium containing electrolyte complex to alleviate this painful issue.
What about BCAA’s & resistance training …. Do you feel they are needed if one is eating protein containing foods every few hours and taking proper post workout nutrition measures? In your opinion, when, why and how should BCAA’s be used to effectively supplement one’s diet?
I guess the major advantage of BCAAs is that they are not prone to being used as a substrate for gluconeogenesis, i.e. the formation of glucose from amino acids in the liver. In addition, they don’t spike insulin levels to the same extent as whey (this is yet only true, if they are taken on their own) and are easier on the stomach than most whey products. It can therefore make sense to take BCAAs before or during a workout (6-12g). They can also be used to “pimp” inferior protein sources with low amounts of BCAAs in them. Simply add some BCAA powder to it and you turn a “low quality” into a “high(er) quality” protein source.
Overall, I still wouldn't consider BCCAs to be one of the elementary supplements everyone needs. If you follow my advice to get 20-30g of quality protein with every meal, you can go without them.
What you should keep in mind, as well, is that everything in nature is cyclic. So, it is neither necessary (maybe even detrimental) to try and mimic a 24/7 BCAA IV by carrying a 2l bottle with 100g of BCAAs in it around and guzzle some of the “spiked” water every 10 minutes or so. In fact this practice can be more than useless. It can be detrimental! The chronic supplementation with high doses of BCCAs, for example, has recently been shown to decrease endurance performance. As I argue in this respective SuppVersity article, it’s probably due to ammonia build-up and can, if taken in very high doses, deplete l-tyrosine and thus serotonine (5-HT) levels in the brain. The serotonine depletion, in turn, can lead to commonly overlooked, but by no means non-existent psychological side effects that can range from constant tiredness over mild cognitive impairments up to depression (see 2nd item in this post)
"Do you have any peri workout nutrition recommendations for those athletes who train for endurance based competitions? How about for strength training athletes?"
Peri-workout for Endurance Workouts
I did actually mention some carbohydrate sources in the short list I gave you before. Those make an important addition to an intra-workout beverage especially for endurance athletes and people on high volume strength training routines who are struggling to gain muscle. I know that many athletes tend to forget about this, in these days in which you can hardly escape the “all carbs are bad for you” paradigm wherever you sit, stand or train. For someone who burns 1,000kcal+ per hour, carbohydrates are an obligatory part of his/her intra-workout nutrition that won’t compromise your health unless you continue guzzling sugary drinks and gels in your free-time and during the “off season”.
In that, slow digesting carbs and resistant starches and similar “non-digestible” carbohydrate sources, which will be fermented into short-chain fatty acids in your gut, may offer a less-/non-insulinogenic alternative that would however be best consumed 1-2h before the competition. If endurance performance is your main concern, it may yet still be useful to refuel during longer races by sipping on a mixture of fast(er) acting carbohydrates and electrolytes during the workout.
Personally I would add some BCAAs ~10g per 30-35min to the intra-workout nutrition and go slowly on “repleting” your glycogen stores after the workout / event. A shake with 30g+ of whey and a couple of bananas will get the job done. Plus, this “stack” is often much better tolerated than one of those funky “super supplements”.
Peri-workout for Strength Workouts
Strength trainees, esp. those on lower volume routines, will probably get away without intra-workout carbs. And people who train for fat loss, not performance or muscle gains should stick to plain water or water with 5-8 of BCAAs, anyways. The aforementioned post-workout stack, on the other hand, is useful for everyone. Obviously, you can replace the bananas by any given fast(er) carbohydrate source, such as instant oats, etc.
Whether you want to spend money on pre-workout supplements is up to you. You should however be aware that 90% of them are nothing but creatine-containing stimulants that are spiked with more or less fancy “look we have XY in our blend” ingredients that are either useless to begin with or simply totally underdosed to elicit noticeable effects as you, Sean, noted earlier when talking about "kitchen sink solutions".
"If you asked 100 nutrition coaches what are two of the best supplements for general health purposes, at least 95 of them would likely list both vitamin D and fish oil. Often they will claim that more is better with respect to both of these supplements. Yet, you are actively against mega-dosing these supplements. Why?"
Well, there are actually several reasons why I really cannot stand the hype around the benefits of fish oil and vitamin D3 any longer. The first and most important one is that none of the few experimental studies that have been conducted on healthy individuals (let alone athletes following a “spot on” dietary regimen) showed effects anywhere in the range of what you would expect if those supplements were only 50% as effective as the current hoopla would suggest.
It’s true: Both are “essential”, but so are omega-6s and specifically arachidonic acid (ARA) and still nobody (aside from a certain supplement company) suggests you take the latter on a daily basis. Why is that the case? Well, the answer should be obvious: You should be able to produce enough of it on your own. After all, the average inhabitant of the Western hemisphere bathes (literally ;-) in short chain omega-6 fatty acids, which can be turned into ARA in a two-step desaturation process (see Figure 3). Unfortunately, there are two caveats to this logical assumption: Firstly, the enzymatic conversion may get disturbed by an overabundance of omega-3 fatty acids, which compete for the same desaturation enzymes (see Figure 3), insufficient thyroid hormones3 diabetes4 etc. Secondly, the aforementioned over-abundance of omega-6 fatty acids is becoming increasingly rare among people like you, people who follow a whole-foods diet, don’t eat processed junk and are (way too often) so scared of omega-6 fatty acids that they even start questioning the use of olive oil, because it has an omega-6 content of ~10%.
Similar to the issue with fats and carbs, I discussed earlier in this interview, the demonization and total avoidance of one nutrient and the dietary, let alone supplementational overconsumption of another one cannot be the solution, when balance should be your ultimate goal. Against that background, the addition of copious amounts of omega-3 fatty acids (either long- or short-chain) to a diet that’s still way too high in omega-6 fatty acids is like wearing a helmet while you are constantly banging your head against a wall – with the helmet, it may hurt less, but that does not turn this form of head-banging into a health-promoting physical activity.
Figure 2. Illustration of the role of the blocked (X) desaturase (DS) enzymes Delta-6 and Delta-5 in the formation of long-chain omega-6 (top) and omega-3 (bottom) fatty acids (originally from PUFAs and the thyroid - insufficient conversion of LA and ALA with low T3 levels)
It is therefore no wonder that the most pronounced beneficial effects were observed in trials, where scientists effectively normalized the omega-3 to omega-6 ratio from the typical 1/17-1/15 ratio of the Western diet to a healthy < 1/5 omega-3 to omega-6 ratio by cutting back on processed high omega-6 foods5. In many cases this can be achieved even without supplemental fish oil, or only very moderate doses of 2-3x caps per day.
Another thing that is totally forgotten over all the hype is the simple fact that many pathologies that are usually linked to “omega-3 deficiency”, such as ADHD and hyperactivity or the age-related cognitive decline are actually characterized by low levels of DHA and the omega-6 fatty acids dihomogammalinolenic and arachidonic acid67.
Aside from its effects on the brain, where ARA is just as essential as the omega-3 fatty acid DHA, arachidonic acid exerts growth promoting respectively ergogenic effects in muscle cells8 and healthy resistance-trained individuals9. It improves mitochondrial function to a similar degree as DHA10 and does, at least in “low” doses of <1g, not pose any significant health risk even for elderly subjects11. Its important role in skin health, reproductive function and normal growth has been established decades ago, anyway12. That it appears to have bone-protective effects in older men (-80% reduced fracture risk in men with high ARA levels and statistically non-significant 15-30% reductions in women)13, on the other hand, is a more recent finding. The same goes for the anti-cancer effects of its less-known precursor DGLA14.
Now, don’t get me wrong I am not arguing against omega-3 fatty acids here and by no means suggesting you should stop eating grass fed beef, dairy from pastured cows and (fatty) fish on a daily / regular basis. What you should keep in mind, though, is that there is such as a thing as “overcorrection”, which could in fact begin for some of you with doses of no more than 1g of additional supplemental EPA + DHA a day. There is a good reason that there is no comparative to the adjective “optimal” – an optimal ratio of n-3/n-6 fatty acids in your diet does therefore not become “more optimal”, if you follow the mainstream advice and pop a handful of potentially rancid fish oil caps on a daily basis.
The last argument, i.e. the non-existence of “more than optimal” intakes / serum levels, is just as, if not more important in the context of vitamin D. Non-epidemiological, experimental evidence that would support the hypothesis that bumping already normal vitamin D levels even higher would yield any of the benefits mainstream media are now propagating on an almost daily basis, is simply non-existent.
Moreover, the fact that dilution effects, due to higher body mass in the obese, could skew the measurements, the role of the critical important P450 enzymatic cascade that’s responsible for the conversion of D3 into calcitriol, the active form of vitamin D, the interactions and synergies with other nutrients especially vitamin A and K, and, last but not least, the mere fact that the presence of low amounts of the storage form of vitamin D (which is D3) in various pathologies are insufficient evidence of a causal involvement of vitamin D in the respective etiologies are scientific facts that are so commonly ignored by scientists. Thus, you really have to wonder, whether the current craze about vitamin D and the ease of getting respective articles published did not already induce a “pathological” ignorance towards the fundamental principles of “good scientific practice”.
In fact, I would estimate that 90% of the publications on the purported benefits of vitamin D supplementation for the general, healthy public are nothing but a bunch of experimentally non-verified (in many cases even disproven) hypotheses that confuse a single puzzle piece with the whole picture … ah, I guess an interview like this is not the place for rants and lengthy elaborations. In view of the fact that reliable experimental data from large-enough human intervention studies is probably not going to be available before the year 201715, I suggest you check out the available SuppVersity articles on that matter and make up your own mind on whether or not you – not your obese neighbor or Mr. and Mrs. Average American Couch Potato – will benefit from chronic vitamin D supplementation. If afterwards you still feel the answer to this question is “Yes, I guess I will benefit from supplemental vitamin D”, save yourself a lot of trouble and get your levels tested before and every 2-3 months after initiating supplementation. As a SuppVersity reader and follower of Sean Casey’s articles at CasePerformance, those $30 vitamin D test may cost you are nothing compared to the truckloads of money you have not been wasting on useless natural testosterone boosters and other junk supplements in 2012, anyway ;-)
Time to take a breath, reflect and prepare for round III Q&A!
Although Part II of this interview has come to a close, fear not; more is on the way! Until then, take the time to reflect and process what you've read as well as pursue answers to questions that may have formed in your head while reading the interview. However, don't get too sidetracked and totally forget about coming back to read the conclusion of our interview, Part III, where Adel Moussa discusses adrenal fatigue, the paleo diet and I share my top 5 pickup lines when trying to impress an individual of your preferred sex! (Ok, maybe I'm just joking on that last one, but you will see a "Top 5 List"… But to find out what it is, you gotta check back!).
References
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16 Stockman, Daniel. Le Penseur. This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license. Image accessed February 1st, 2013 from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paris_2010_-_Le_Penseur.jpg